Comments on: Electric Car Cost Per Mile http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/ Ed Ring's EcoWorld Posts Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:33:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Brooklands http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-89983 Brooklands Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:05:31 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-89983 I am no engineer or expert on any of this, but i would think that if we can have transportation modules using electricity made from coal, hydro, solar, wind, or other sources, as well as hydrogen fuel cells, IC petroleum engines, and anything else that develops, our resources across the world will be better utilized and meet more needs for particular vehicles. I am no engineer or expert on any of this, but i would think that if we can have transportation modules using electricity made from coal, hydro, solar, wind, or other sources, as well as hydrogen fuel cells, IC petroleum engines, and anything else that develops, our resources across the world will be better utilized and meet more needs for particular vehicles.

]]> By: sculptor http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-23992 sculptor Sun, 24 Jun 2007 08:54:01 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-23992 Well, since most of the salient points where addressed in the above discussion I'll only add that it's nice (and more efficient) to have an IC vehicle during cold weather because the waste heat can be used to keep ones feet warm. This is called co-generation and it is very efficient if used correctly. My idea of an ideal vehicle would be a plug-able diesel hybrid. It would get about 70 mpg on the highway and 80 mpg in city driving when it's off the grid. Well, since most of the salient points where addressed in the above discussion I’ll only add that it’s nice (and more efficient) to have an IC vehicle during cold weather because the waste heat can be used to keep ones feet warm. This is called co-generation and it is very efficient if used correctly.

My idea of an ideal vehicle would be a plug-able diesel hybrid. It would get about 70 mpg on the highway and 80 mpg in city driving when it’s off the grid.

]]> By: nikhil.p.jadhav http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-11748 nikhil.p.jadhav Mon, 02 Apr 2007 14:52:38 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-11748 hi i am a engineering student and would like to give a seminar on nuclear powered car so can you give any information so that i can give this seminar thanking you hi i am a engineering student and would like to give a seminar on nuclear powered car so can you give any information so that i can give this seminar thanking you

]]> By: David Grove http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-2070 David Grove Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:44:50 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-2070 "Hey, if you’re gonna count production and distribution against the electric car, you should charge it against the gasoline car as well." The important thing is to start at the same starting place and measure the cost from there. Start from a gallon of gasoline. Then use it either to power a conventional automobile, or, alternatively, to fuel an electric power plant and eventually power an EV. Both require the same starting point. The upstream petroleum production costs accrue to both. To make the EV vs IC powered behicle comparison by basing the electric vehicle cost on energy in electrical form, while basing the ICE vehicle cost on energy in petroleum form isn't quite legitimate, in my opinion. One could make the argument that electricity to power an EV need not be based on a petroleum product if one is considering nuclear, hydroelectric, or coal sources for electricity production. “Hey, if you’re gonna count production and distribution against the electric car, you should charge it against the gasoline car as well.”

The important thing is to start at the same starting place and measure the cost from there. Start from a gallon of gasoline. Then use it either to power a conventional automobile, or, alternatively, to fuel an electric power plant and eventually power an EV.

Both require the same starting point. The upstream petroleum production costs accrue to both.

To make the EV vs IC powered behicle comparison by basing the electric vehicle cost on energy in electrical form, while basing the ICE vehicle cost on energy in petroleum form isn’t quite legitimate, in my opinion.

One could make the argument that electricity to power an EV need not be based on a petroleum product if one is considering nuclear, hydroelectric, or coal sources for electricity production.

]]> By: Brian schend http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1587 Brian schend Tue, 03 Oct 2006 00:56:44 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1587 60% Efficiency at the power plant x 80% at the car is valid. So let's add drilling, refining, and truck transport to gasoline. While pipeline is comparable to transmission lines in efficiency, they don't go to every home like power lines do. So, considering refining, drilling and trucking, gasoline would likewise drop to around 15 MPG equivalent under this scenario. Hey, if you're gonna count production and distribution against the electric car, you should charge it against the gasoline car as well. 60% Efficiency at the power plant x 80% at the car is valid. So let’s add drilling, refining, and truck transport to gasoline. While pipeline is comparable to transmission lines in efficiency, they don’t go to every home like power lines do. So, considering refining, drilling and trucking, gasoline would likewise drop to around 15 MPG equivalent under this scenario.

Hey, if you’re gonna count production and distribution against the electric car, you should charge it against the gasoline car as well.

]]> By: Dave Robert http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1505 Dave Robert Sat, 23 Sep 2006 01:10:48 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1505 The laws of thermodynamics that limit internal combustion engine efficiency are also acting on power plants as well. You've entirely neglected the waste heat that's part of the combustion cycle at the power plant. A high quality combined cycle gas turbine might yield a maximum of 60% efficiency if you're doing electricity only. Applying that factor to your equation gives a result of about 50% efficiency, i.e. 80% x 60%=48%. That would get you about 60 MPG equivalent. Not bad, but it's not 96. The laws of thermodynamics that limit internal combustion engine efficiency are also acting on power plants as well. You’ve entirely neglected the waste heat that’s part of the combustion cycle at the power plant. A high quality combined cycle gas turbine might yield a maximum of 60% efficiency if you’re doing electricity only. Applying that factor to your equation gives a result of about 50% efficiency, i.e. 80% x 60%=48%. That would get you about 60 MPG equivalent. Not bad, but it’s not 96.

]]> By: Patrick Wright http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1494 Patrick Wright Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:14:40 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1494 I never understand why people think there is a lack of charging stations for electric cars. Almost every garage in the country has a 110v outlet. I've kept a driving record for many years and have found that I drive more than 200 miles in a day approximately 5 times a year. If I had an electric car my "fuel tank" would be full every morning - I wouldn't need charging stations scattered all over town. I never understand why people think there is a lack of charging stations for electric cars. Almost every garage in the country has a 110v outlet. I’ve kept a driving record for many years and have found that I drive more than 200 miles in a day approximately 5 times a year. If I had an electric car my “fuel tank” would be full every morning - I wouldn’t need charging stations scattered all over town.

]]> By: Skarrin http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1367 Skarrin Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:50:18 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1367 "And an electric car loses at least 20% of its capacity by the 4th year." A minor problem with this apodictic statement is that the NiCd batteries in my '95 Renault Express are so ignorant about this "fact", that they still have more than rated capacity (147 instead of 136 Ah) after 11 years. And those people who already drove >60k miles in a Think city, >50k miles with a Twike, or >150k miles with RAV4 EVs without replacing the batteries, must all be aliens from a parallel universe. The biggest problem with EVs are uninformed and clueless people completely ignoring facts, and not willing to learn. “And an electric car loses at least 20% of its capacity by the 4th year.”
A minor problem with this apodictic statement is that the NiCd batteries in my ‘95 Renault Express are so ignorant about this “fact”, that they still have more than rated capacity (147 instead of 136 Ah) after 11 years.
And those people who already drove >60k miles in a Think city, >50k miles with a Twike, or >150k miles with RAV4 EVs without replacing the batteries, must all be aliens from a parallel universe.

The biggest problem with EVs are uninformed and clueless people completely ignoring facts, and not willing to learn.

]]> By: John Spradley http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1360 John Spradley Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:29:55 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1360 Not all electric cars are the same. I have less than $7000 in my 25 year old conversion, including $1300 for new Lead Acid batteries. My gas bill went from $298 in May to ZERO in July and August. My solar roof-top system pays for all the electricity. Maintenance? Tires, Brakes, suspension. I calculate my 1981 Ford Electrica is good for another 25 years. Simple. Reliable, easy to maintain. My 2nd car, a Chevy 3500 van gets about 11 miles per gallon. True, I gave up a lot, but I gained much more! Not all electric cars are the same. I have less than $7000 in my
25 year old conversion, including $1300 for new Lead Acid batteries. My gas bill went from $298 in May to ZERO in July and August.
My solar roof-top system pays for all the electricity.

Maintenance? Tires, Brakes, suspension. I calculate my 1981
Ford Electrica is good for another 25 years. Simple. Reliable, easy
to maintain. My 2nd car, a Chevy 3500 van gets about 11 miles per gallon.

True, I gave up a lot, but I gained much more!

]]> By: David Beard http://ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1359 David Beard Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:57:11 +0000 http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2006/08/04/electric-car-cost-per-mile/#comment-1359 Actually the Generation II EV1 had NiMh batteries, But in a larger format than is being used in current hybrids. Allot of the problems associated with Lithium batteries are chemistry specific. Lithium cobalt has a tendency to catch fire, slip into a condition called thermal runaway, or explode. This is due to the fact that the chemical reaction of cobalt releases oxygen during a fire..which fuels the fire. Lithium phosphate chemistries do not exhibit this tendency...In short they are inherently much safer. Unfortunately this safety comes at the sacrifice of some energy density. But it is a trade off we can live with. Nanotechnology is bringing improvements in battery technology and Lithiums in the pipeline are now capable of much higher charge/discharge rates...ultimately this will lead to smaller packs and some reduced costs. Other improvements can be found in changing the way cars are built too....composite materials can be cost effective and competitive with steel, but the manufacturing requirements are different. extensive use of plastics though has some hiddn advantages such as reduced parts count. A part that was traditional made up of several pieces of steel can be molded in a single piece, cutting costs and assembly times. Colors can molded directly into the part, avoiding the need to paint the car. Actually the Generation II EV1 had NiMh batteries, But in a larger format than is being used in current hybrids. Allot of the problems associated with Lithium batteries are chemistry specific. Lithium cobalt has a tendency to catch fire, slip into a condition called thermal runaway, or explode. This is due to the fact that the chemical reaction of cobalt releases oxygen during a fire..which fuels the fire. Lithium phosphate chemistries do not exhibit this tendency…In short they are inherently much safer. Unfortunately this safety comes at the sacrifice of some energy density. But it is a trade off we can live with. Nanotechnology is bringing improvements in battery technology and Lithiums in the pipeline are now capable of much higher charge/discharge rates…ultimately this will lead to smaller packs and some reduced costs.

Other improvements can be found in changing the way cars are built too….composite materials can be cost effective and competitive with steel, but the manufacturing requirements are different. extensive use of plastics though has some hiddn advantages such as reduced parts count. A part that was traditional made up of several pieces of steel can be molded in a single piece, cutting costs and assembly times. Colors can molded directly into the part, avoiding the need to paint the car.

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